His and Her Health

I posted this to the men's board and got a response from the Moderator - thanks, Mod. I'd love to hear what women have to say about this subject. Here's my post:

We're currently in a sexless marriage but I am working hard to try to change that with a therapist. My husband is not since he says he is not the one with the problem. (Long story *sigh*) Anyhow, at least we're still talking. Recently, we got into a discussion about sex and intimacy and what these mean. My husband says that sex and intimacy are the same thing but I say that intimacy is about emotional closeness or an emotional bond. This bond is created and kept strong by sharing all aspects of our lives and enjoying an unconditional relationship. If a couple have that they have true intimacy and can enjoy a great sex life. He says I think too much. We should just have sex and that will bring us closer together. (I have to say that I tried his idea - have sex and everything will be fine - I posted about what happened on the Women's board here).

So, guys, my question is: do most men think that sex is intimacy, and/or that intimacy can be created through sex? He said he has felt intimate with a one-night stand and that by distinguishing sex from intimacy I'm just making everything overly complicated. I would so love to hear any and all opinions on this. I'm not saying he's wrong and I'm right but more input could help us come to some kind of consensus/compromise.

Thanks!

I am a male married 9 yrs.I Think intimacy and sex are the same thing with someone you love. But, I do not believe it would be with a one night stand.
I will ask my wife to read this post and add her 2cents. I hope i have not been confusing the two.

edit
I just read your other post and i need to correct. What i wrote before.
I guess I miss understood your post. Me and my wife are very close. We hug, snuggle and neck all the time and it does not always lead to making love.
we even fall asleep in each other arms.
So you are right intimacy and sex are separate.

Thanks for your input, jivey. I think a lot of people, men and women, use the words sex and intimacy interchangeably but I don't. For me, sex is the physical side of the bond and intimacy is the emotional side. It's hard to explain - sorry. Put it this way, we can have sex with anyone (it's a physical act, afterall) but we can't be intimate with just anyone. For me, if the emotional closeness or intimacy is there then the sex is fantastic, whatever the outcome ( orgasm or no). Does that make sense? I think that what's most important for long term relationships is not orgasmic physical sex [pls keep reading! - I'm not saying that long term relationships can survive without sex] but great intimacy which is fostered and nurtured by making non-sexual time to spend with the other (doing whatever, like walking the dog, just talking). And diamonds are not a girl's best friend; time is. If my husband takes the time from his very busy life to spend time with me because he wants to not because he feels dutybound because I'm his wife or because he thinks he has to to get sex from me, then I feel very close to him emotionally and I want to express that in a physical way (through sex). I matter more than his job, the unfinished home renovations, the ball game. Over the years, I think people forget this (or perhaps they never had it in the first place). Sharing our time here and now is what's important. When we do that we have great sex. It's kind of a "Chicken and Egg" scenario. Sorry, I'm rambling! )

Anyhow, I would love to hear your wife's views on this.

Sex911, Well said!!

Hi sex911,
I 100% agree that sex and intimacy are entirely different, although they play off of each other. I have been dating my boyfriend for almost two years now and have seen from past experience that the more intimate we are, ie. the more emotionally connected we are, the more enjoyable sex is because there is that emotional side playing a part in the physical enjoyment. My boyfriend on the otherhand thinks that sex is intimacy and that when we have sex he always feels closer to me (although I can't necessarily agree). In my opinion, we are both just happier people when we are sexually active because we are physically satisfied, but that seems to have little to do with how well connected we are emotionally.

So I guess the whole point of that is that I agree, sex and intimacy are different. But that's just a female point of view. At the moment I can't have sex due to vulvar vestibulitis (I'm having surgery in 4 weeks) and I have found that all my boyfriend wants at the moment is sex, but I want intimacy. More than ever, right now I want to cuddle and do things that connect us, like you said walk the dog, or go for coffee and have a long conversation, or go for a hike together. Right now, knowing that I can't have sex, that sort of intimacy satisfies me. But he thinks that because we can't have sex all is lost (including any romantic gestures or bonding moments).

So I guess it doesn't necessarily matter if females think one thing and men think the other, it comes down to how you can compromise between the two. Because at the end of the day, both people in a relationship are just striving to fullfill themselves and their happiness, so you have to work together to find that happy median where you can both be mentally and physically satisfied.

Allow me to chime in on this. Like many guys I did not know there was a difference between the 2 words. I thought they 2 words with the same meaning only used by the different sexes. They are related but not exactly similar. For the guys that dont know, intimacy is something that women want. They want to share their thoughts, so listen. They want us to open up and share our thoughts and feelings. Uncomfortable, right? They want us to do romantic things like send flowers especially when there is no special occasion. I have learned this after 30 plus years of marriage. No, the sissy squad didnt take me into the back alley and beat that idea into me. Maybe it is best defined this way. Intimacy is the spiritual foreplay before the sexual foreplay. It is sharing your hopes and dreams, doing things that you wouldnt normally do for no reason at all. It does make the sexual experience better each time the intimacy is shared

I do agree that the more a couple is emotional attached a couple is the better the sex is.
Me and my wife are pretty much attached to the hip. Excepted when where at our jobs. But, we still find time to connect via emails and im chats. I always give her flowers. Just because
We are always holding hands or touching each other in public. Especially when we are at her son's sports game her x-husband is always there. He's always watching us. So I always give him something to watch..lol ( he told her when she was leaving him. No one would ever want her or love her)
So, I was way off on my previous statement on intimacy and sex being the same. Thanks for giving me something to think about

Thanks, everyone, for responding to my question in such positive ways.

I've been wondering too if much of this isn't tied to a person's sense of self-worth somehow. I think my husband, for instance, feels at a loss when I say I just want him to choose to spend his spare time with me instead of, say, mowing the grass. Maybe when he looks at himself, he wonders why on earth I would want to spend time with him, to just be in his company, because he doesn't see himself as being all that special or worthwhile to be around. (I've talked to him about spending time together and he asked me what the point is. "What would we accomplish?" he asked, as if we need to be doing/building something measureable with a ruler because then we would have something tangible as proof of our efforts). And, I feel worth less than the lawn because he would rather be mowing it than spending time with me. For me personally, being treated like I'm very low on his to-do list of life makes me feel emotionally unconnected to him and thus sex is the last thing on my mind. And, as far as sex goes, he's the opposite: when he starts to feel unconnected to me emotionally he thinks we should have sex and then the bond will be re-created for him.

Having said all of this, I do not think my husband actually intends for me to feel this way (although I must confess that on bad days, I sometimes wonder). I just wish there was some way that I could get him to see that he is a wonderful person: I want to spend time with him. Life really is about choices; and, there is no dress rehearsal: he can choose to mow the lawn later.

Thanks again, everyone. This is a great thread. I hope others will add their thoughts/opinions too. It's really helpful to hear what everyone has to say about what has become a challenge in my marriage.

Sex911, thank you for opening my eyes. About the difference between sex and intimacy. I truly hope your hubby wake up a realizes. What a loving and caring wife he has.
My wife said, that if we had the same problem she would go out of her way. To try and do the things that I like to do. Just to spend time with me.
We pretty much do everything to together. Even household projects. We work well as a team.
Good luck I do hope you get that emotional connection with your hubby.
it does make a marriage or relationship stronger.

That's very kind of you to say such nice things about me, jivey. You wife's idea about trying to do the things that he likes to do is a good one except when it comes to my husband and I. What he likes to do besides home renovation is hunt and play sports. All three he says are his domain, and not what he wants to be doing with his wife (and family - we have 2 children). For example, when he used to play on this one ball team, I used to take our girls out to watch but he finally told me he didn't really want us there because it was a "guy thing." And, just this last week he was away for the whole week on business and today he spent the day by himself doing stuff around the house. It's hard: it never occurred to me before I got married that I would be this lonely.

Yeah, his response, "What would that accomplish?" tells me a lot. I have the same problem with my wife. She always needs to be doing something when we're together. She doesn't seem to understand the fun of "just you and me, together".

But if the man has a high sex drive, and there isn't much sex, it's difficult for a man to feel like he wants to be with the woman, just one-on-one, spending time. He reasons, why should I spend time with someone who rejects me? And sexual rejection can overshadow any feelings of wanting to be close for such a person.

From the man's point-of-view, when he got married, he decided to be sexual with only one person. And then that person wants to only cuddle, or have sex very infrequently? At that point, even a man who would otherwise want to cuddle might say, "What would that accomplish?" out of anger and sexual frustration.

That's why I asked the question about sexual frequency in the men's forum (when you were having sex and before things headed for a stalemate).

Thanks, patient, for giving me your viewpoint here too. To me, the big thing is time and how we choose to spend it. We're very busy people and my husband has a very high stress career involving huge amounts of overtime. When he's away I'm a single parent with a schedule that's just downright crazy. He loves his job. I support him in doing what he loves 100% and we (the kids and I) organize our lives around his schedule.

It's not that I don't like sex, I do, and it's not that I want to sit around forever cuddling or anything like that. (Personally I think some people mistake physical affection - cuddling - for the kind of intimacy I'm talking about). I just want to feel that I mean something to him besides being a great way for him to feel good physically and relieve his stress. Sorry to be so blunt but a lot of the time that's how I feel and, honestly, I don't think he has had any idea of that. If I give him what he wants (sex) but I don't get what I want, it doesn't make any difference to him. He got what he needed and is over the moon and therefore everything in our relationship is perfect. And, this is where I ask, "Really? is everyone else like that too?"

I used to do whatever he wanted, pretty much when he wanted and we had a sex life (maybe not perfect but certainly not non-existant like we have now), but he told me our marriage wouldn't survive if I didn't make some pretty big personal changes and become more independent. It's ironic that our current sexless marriage problem is part of the fallout from my sessions. What I've learned in therapy is that I need to speak up, be more assertive about what I need, communicate more. I've learned that it's ok for me to ask my husband for what I need too, that he won't abandon me for asking. Part of this for me involves childhood abuse - which he knew was part of the package before he married me - and I am with a professional and have worked very hard to unlearn and change. And, now that I have started to change and become a more independent person (which is what my husband said he wanted all along) he will probably leave me because I'm asking for more of an emotional connection - something he doesn't want to give. And, if he does leave he'll blame me for creating a sexless marriage.

My husband has already told me that he can't survive in a sexless marriage (neither can I) and so I told him what I need and want. I really don't think I'm asking too much - just a few hours once in a while with no pressure for anything. I don't want things (money, gifts, jewellry - not that kind of woman at all) just time to be with him.

Tomorrow morning, he doesn't have to go into work early like he usually does and he could be spending a couple of hours with me. But he's not; he's going out on the lake with a couple of friends, instead. The kids are at school tomorrow morning and, if he did spend the time with me, I know (because I'm a very tenacious determined woman!) where we'd end up (which would be great for both of us). And, I'm not saying it would be perfect or anything but at least I'm willing to try (even after the last time, which was truly awful physically because we hadn't had sex for a long time - and no, not years but several months). But if I ask him to spend the morning with me, he'll just get all angry: he always says he's just a guy who needs to do guy things and relax with his friends. We've had these opportunities before and that's what always happened. It's pretty hard not to feel rejected and unloved (and therefore not into sex) when he's been away for a week and would rather spend his spare time relaxing with friends than, at least, trying to re-connect so we can have what he says he can't live without. So, any ideas about that one because I'm truly at a loss.

Boy, you're in a tough spot. As you say, and as your therapist has probably pointed out too, the improvement you are experiencing is likely changing the dynamic of your relationship, even in ways your husband is not prepared for. Which is why your husband should be in therapy with you. Perhaps he could be made to understand that many women, not just you, would not put up with so little emotional connection.

What would it take to get him to therapy with you?

You sound communicative and level-headed. I would think a lot of men would like to spend time with you. Can you think of any activities you two would enjoy doing together besides sex? Movies, restaurants, walks, hikes, etc.? I get the feeling he satisfies a bit too much of his need for social connection with his friends and leaves not much for you. How are the wives of his friends doing? Do they feel similarly shut out?

We tried therapy. Basically, he just got angry and said he's not the one with the problems, I am. I don't know what it would take to get him to go back. I've tried every which way to get him to see that it could help but he says he doesn't need therapy, there's nothing wrong with him. He has suggested, though, that maybe now I need to see a sex therapist.

Thank you for saying I sound level headed and communicative - that's one of the nicest things anyone has said to me for a long time. And, yes, I can think of lots of activities we can do together but he always says he has all these things to do. So, I just spend my days all by myself and on weekends usually doing activities with our kids. Sometimes he might take one of them to a sports lesson they have but otherwise he's doing his own thing.

You asked about his friends' wives and I have to say I don't know. We don't do any couples stuff because he's made it pretty clear that their his friends and he keeps that part of his life very separate from mine. Sometimes, I'll ask if he would like to invite x and his wife over for dinner or something and he says that would be good but it never happens. He just says everyone's busy, working, etc

All of this makes my husband sound like some kind of brute but he really isn't. In so many ways he really is a great person who works very hard. I really don't think he had/s any intent to make me feel this way. I don't think he's able to see what he's doing at all. On the few times, I've got him to take the time, it's been really great (I've got my emotional connection/intimacy and he's got his sex/intimacy) but he doesn't schedule me in more than a few times a year and then gets all frustrated because we don't have more sex and says our marriage is at risk because of it.

In some ways I just don't get it but in others I wonder if I'm beginning to understand what might be going on. Although many people (my husband included) believe that during the act of sex they are at their most vulnerable, I disagree. I believe that it's the emotional connection that makes a person most vulnerable and I wonder if this is true for my husband even if he doesn't see it this way or admit it to himself. Maybe he doesn't want to be around me and be emotionally intimate with me because he doesn't want to have such a potentially vulnerable bond with anyone, including me. If he doesn't invest any of his own emotions in creating the intimate bond, he won't "lose" anything if the bond gets broken for whatever reason. It's hard to put into words here but I've tried to explain my theory in a very gentle way but he just says I think to much, we should just have sex and everything will be fine. The whole thing gives new meaning to "rock and a hard place."

I'm happy to say it again -- I wish my wife were as communicative on this topic and as willing to fix a relationship problem as you are. But, of course, that doesn't solve our problems! Fun thought, though.

I agree he doesn't sound like a brute. His inconsiderateness is not in what he does, it's only in what he doesn't do. Schedules outings with you only a few times a year? That's ridiculous.

I really don't know you or your husband well enough to say this, so it's just a guess from what I know of other people in situations like the one you're in. And I'm sure your therapist has covered this too. But people who have been sexually abused sometimes feel like they don't have any say or power in their relationships. I would expect you're learning to improve in that regard. But it sounds to me like your husband is still treating you as if you had no power in the relationship, as if you're just a fixture or a piece of furniture at home. He's really spending no time with you at all, based on what you write. And I think that's the aspect of it that he needs to be in therapy for too.

As for convincing him he needs to be in therapy with you, he's kind of dumb about understanding the point of couples therapy. Apparently, he believes in the simple-minded and mistaken concept that if two people are individual OK and don't need individual therapy, it automatically means that those two people will never have trouble in a relationship together. Very dumb! Two people can still disagree and have different needs, even if there is nothing wrong with those needs. Does he not understand the concept of "mismatch", even if there is nothing wrong with each person? Have you tried explaining that to him?

And if that doesn't work, why would he not agree to go to therapy to help you, even if there's nothing wrong with him?

Your husband sounds clueless about relationships and inconsiderate of your needs.