His and Her Health

I need some help!<BR>I am 28 and have no desire to have sex.<BR>I am married, I've been with my husband (including dating) for six years.<BR>I had three sexual partners before him. I never had a great sexual desire but did have some.<BR>Now, I have none. The first month we were sexually active, it was the best ever. I even climaxed during sex (never had before) I went and had a yearly exam at PP and from that day forward, have not enjoyed sex. And it seems, my desire has increasingly decreased.<BR>During sex, I either get mild enjoyment or none at all. I have a very hard time keeping my mind on the task at hand.<BR>We still have sex, normally once a week. My husband thinks this is way too infrequent. And no matter what I tell him takes my lack of desire very personally. He has grown increasing frustrated.<BR>I went to my obgyn, she gave me testosterone cream, didn't really help. I do have vaginall dryness and irritation. I have lubricants I use during sex. They at least decrease the pain and discomfort.<BR>I can climax manually, but not as well as I once did. He can bring me to climax from touch but not always, sometimes it just hurts. He can't understand why sometimes it feels good and sometimes it bothers me. He won't perform oral sex, but enjoys receiving it.<BR>We have watch porn together, turns me on initially but I soon get bored and disgusted by it.<BR>I have no history of sexual abuse. I have never been treated for depression nor taken any prescription medicine besides birth control. I have been off of the pill for a year now.<BR>We initially were going to start trying to conceive. But I don't believe our relationship is healthy enough for that. And a HUGE part of the problem is my lack of sexual desire or how much that bothers my husband.<BR>I went to a psychologist, she was no help. Thought it was fine I didn't want to have sex and that my husband is addicted to sex. <BR>I would love to see a sex therapist but there are none in the area. And I could never get my husband to go with me.<BR>I would appreciate any advice.

Well, this is my standard response for something like this. I am sure you will get posts about having your hormone levels checked, but if you already tried T cream that sounds like a dead end.<P>First of all, no stimulants--no coffee, no tea, no cigarettes, no antidepressants (obviously do not go off of antidepressants to do this), no ginkgo or ginseng or any other herbal stimulant. And no hormonal birth control like birth control pills.<P>Second, eat a couple ounces of dark chocolate every day. <P>Third, vitamin supplements. Take a good multivitamin (with 15 mg of zinc) every day, extra 400 IU of vitamin E, extra C (I drink lots of orange juice), fish oil six grams, full load of calcium/magnesium/zinc (1000/400/15), and iron (check with your doctor about the iron). I take 27 mg of iron every other day. Do not take high-dose fish oil like this if you are on blood-thinning medication or aspirin therapy.<P>Fourth, exercise your PC muscles. Kegels are not enough. I recommend vaginal cone weights, work your way up to the fifth weight.<P>Fifth, try the Zone diet or the Atkins diet for meals before having relations.<P>I've recently had some positive encouragement from FSD experts, so it may not be as nutty as it sounds. I'm trying to get a research study off the ground, but as of now all I have is anecdotal evidence.

<BR><p>[This message has been edited by thisbattymom (edited February 21, 2005).]

Thanks for the suggestions.<BR>I am trying to be healthy. I have lost fifty pounds. I am sure being overweight hasn't helped since I felt so unattractive. But I am watching what I eat and exercising more.<BR>So I don't have any stimulants. I do take vitamins daily and will double check the doses for what you recommended.<BR>I ordered the cones today. I had never heard of them before but thought it was worth a try. <BR>Hopefully the better sex videos and these will help.<BR>I initiated sex this morning. I wanted to make my husband feel good. He tried like 10 positions and I still didn't enjoy it. It doesn't bother me, I'm just getting anything out of it but making him feel better.<BR>But I don't know how much better he feels since he must know I'm not overly enjoying it. But I can't bring myself to fake it. Sometimes I moan a little and try to appear like I'm breathing heavy.<BR>Anyway, thanks for the tips.

CONGRATULATIONS on the weight loss!!! <P>Our own perceptions of ourselves as unattractive, nonsexual beings is a HUGE contributor to many women's libido!<P>Ok...I have to ask...which positions did you try and they all didn't feel good? Did you have enough foreplay to get aroused at all? Do you use a lubricant? HOW don't the positions feel good, do you just feel nothing, does it hurt,....<P>What do you think about during sex...do you picture sexy things in your head, or are you thinking about what you have to do during the day?<P>Is there ANYTHING you can think of that gets you even a little turned on? Do you read romance novels? Do you watch soft porn on Skinemax? Is there ANYTHING at all???<P>Do you think about sex very often? I know that's a big thing for me...just thinking about sex more often seems to help me quite a bit.<P>Try zane's diet as it seemed to be at least a contributor to me getting mine back.<P>Do you exercise? I have also found that some activity every day "gets the juices flowing" so to speak.<P>Keep reading and keep posting!!!!<P>You're not alone!<P>Tracie

Chocolate does contain caffeine but it also contains substances that raise dopamine levels, which is the goal.<P>I doubt that you are taking high-dose fish oil and the quantity of zinc I recommend, which are unusual but safe. Both of those have a good effect on hormone levels. Please post here to let everyone know how the method works, even if it doesn't work at all.<P>I am surprised others here have not posted about counseling and therapy, etc. That's out of my realm, but it might be beneficial for you too (although my theory is that being in love give such a boost to dopamine levels that it helps with sex--not very romantic, I know).<P>As for oral sex, I would say what's good for the gander is good for the goose.<p>[This message has been edited by zaneblue (edited 08 August 2003).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><BR>I went to my obgyn, she gave me testosterone cream, didn't really help. I do have vaginall dryness and irritation. I have lubricants I use during sex. They at least decrease the pain and discomfort.<BR>I can climax manually, but not as well as I once did. He can bring me to climax from touch but not always, sometimes it just hurts. He can't understand why sometimes it feels good and sometimes it bothers me. He won't perform oral sex, but enjoys receiving it.<BR></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Just a few comments. <P>I don't believe that simply because you tried T cream we should assume it's not T. Further, it's even more "impossible" to know if your other hormones are in proper order.<P>I tell everyone this…<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><BR>Call every doc who has run *any* blood work on you for the last couple of years. Request that they either mail, fax, carrier pidgeon, etc *FULL* copies of all results to you. This is really important, and something that you should ask for in the future. <P>(Don't accept *only* a "reading" over the phone, though I'd take careful notes if they offer. Then ask for them to mail or fax. If they refuse, politely inform them that you are legally entitled to full copies of your medical records, and that they need to get with the program.)<P>Post those results here, along with the ranges they give as "Normal."<P><BR>Probably the most important test(s) in relation to desire disorder/ low libido, arousal disorder and sensation issues are:<P><UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Total and Free T by equilibrium dialysis if possible (see an explanation of this in the blood-work section of the website listed in my profile.)<LI>Thyroid Function Tests (TSH, Thyroxine/T4)<LI>Prolactin / PRL (A blood test that measures the amount of the hormone prolactin.)<LI>LH / ICSH (Luteinizing hormone) <LI>FSH (Follicle Stimulating Hormone)<LI>Estradiol<LI>SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin)<LI>DHEA and DHEAS</UL><BR></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If your OB/GYN didn't make sure your estrogen levels are high enough, then that could be part of the problem with lubrication, arousal, and even libido and mood. (And having a normal cycle is NOT enough to assure your estrogen levels are normal or adequate.) The symptoms you relate can also point to low T. So can low lubrication, and difficulties with orgasm, and sensation.<P>Thyroid and Prolactin can also have serious effects on your sexual function.<BR>---<P>Next, did your provider test your T levels before prescribing T? And what were the results? (Really, anyone would need Total T, Free T, and SHBG to make any accurate assessments about your *real* bio-available T numbers.) Were your T levels tested *after* you started taking the T cream? (Both tests are needed to determine if your levels are low to start, and that the T you took got your levels back to a normal level, not too high and not too low.)<P>What kind of T cream did you use? (Compounded, or something like Androgel?) How much T was in your cream? (1%, 2% or something different) How much did you apply? How often did you apply it? Where was it applied? How long did you continue to use it? (This is of particular concern, as in our case, T is having dramatically more effect at 90+ days than before. The first 60 days really had very little effect on sexual function for us, other than lubrication. Sensation, desire and motivation were much higher for us after 90 days. If you didn't take it for a long enough period, there's a reasonable chance you didn't give it enough time to work. (I'd say 90 days at a minimum, perhaps even as long as a year.)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><BR>I went to a psychologist, she was no help. Thought it was fine I didn't want to have sex and that my husband is addicted to sex.<BR></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Frankly, this sounds like complete bunk. There may be problems, but this sounds like a "I don't know what the heck is going on, or I myself don't like sex, so lets come up with a sound-bite that I can roll out" type of experience. You'll have to decide yourself, but this sounds awfully lame to me.<P>Now, one thing that does interest me is the onset. Perhaps it's a simple coincidence, or perhaps not. However, before *I* would be willing to write hormones and physical issues off, I think I would pursue at least ensuring your physical/hormonal health was NOT part of the problem.<P><B>thisbattymom</B><P>I see you are saying in your SIG that you're doing extended nursing. This can cause issues with desire. Perhaps that is part of your issue.<P>Also, there are quite a number of women who seem to lose desire and even ability to orgasm after delivery of a child. Sometimes this is due to hormonal shifts, but it can also be due to physical damage from child-birth.<P>If your issues continue after you stop nursing, then I'd look into these things as possibilities.<P>---<P>Also, here are three good books you should consider. They will help you understand this all a bit more and be more self-educated. It will also help you direct your own care better.<P>I'm Not in the Mood: What Every Woman Should Know about Improving Her Libido, by Judith Reichman - Score, 9/10 <P>For Women Only: A Revolutionary Guide to Overcoming Sexual Dysfunction and Reclaiming Your Sex Life, by Jennifer Berman - Score 8/10 <P>Resurrecting Sex: Resolving Sexual Problems and Rejuvenating Your Relationship by David Schnarch (One really doesn't need both of David Schnarch's books, but both are good and somewhat different. Resurrecting Sex discusses BOTH medical and physical causes for sexual dysfunction, where Passionate Marriage only reviews the psychological, though it's an excellent book.)<P>Lastly, I think finding a provider who can help guide you through your FSD troubles and help you find a solution that works for you is important.<P>A website we run can perhaps assist you as we have some names of providers in your area. These can't be posted here because of the "rules" the Bermans have put in place. You can see my profile for more information, or to email me. I'll be glad to assist you in any way I can.<P>I hope you both find some adequate solutions to your issues.<P>Best wishes,<BR>Greg<P>Also note, I am *not* a doctor, and this is not intended as medical advice - Please talk to your doctor about your concerns.<P>[This message has been edited by distressed_12345 (edited 08 August 2003).]<BR><p>[Note: This message has been edited by NEWSHE Moderator]

I will try to answer at least most of the questions. Thank you for your help.<BR>Positions - We have tried missionary, me on top, sideways, using the couch, him standing up, from behind (but never anal). <BR>Some feel better than others. Now I don't bother with much foreplay, I have it in mind that I'm not going to get much out of it, so why bother. It is a vicious cycle. I use Astro glide, the one time, insertion lubricant. It makes this much easier, no pain or discomfort and my husband likes it to. I think when I'm dry, it hurts him too.<BR>I have a hard time keepin my mind on the sex at hand, I go in and out of thinking of sex and some pretty mundane thoughts totally unrelated.<P>I do watch porn sometimes with him. If I watch it only for a short time, it will help turn me on. My husband and I usually fondle each other watching and that is pleasurful most of the time.<P>I think about sex a lot, but that is mainly because of our problem with it.<P>I will try the high-dose fish oil and zinc. Worth a shot and I'll let everyone know if I see an improvement.<P>I would love therapy, I think it would only help. But I am having a very difficult task of finding anyone to help. I tried it that one time and the person was no help at all. After she told me my husband was addicted to sex. (I still don't believe he is, I don't think it's unreasonable that a 26 year old male would want it a couple times a week), she asked if I thought he was cheating on me. I told her now. She said she would be surprised if he wasn't. I told my husband that and so he didn't listen to anything else she has had to say. I don't believe he is and he has never given me any indication or sign that he is. <BR>I don't have any blood work done that I could get results from. I haven't seen a doctor in a long time and was thinking of getting a wellness exam anyway, would they do this blood work for that? Is this special testing I would have to request? Even if my insurance wouldn't cover it, it would be worth it.<BR>I don't have exactly what T cream I was taking, I'll have to check. But I still have it at home and I didn't take it as long as 90 days. I was told to rub it on every other day. I will start that again and this time, I'll give it much longer.<P>I have the first two books mentioned, I'm still reading the For Women Only book, I'll try the resurrecting sex.<P>Thank you

jennifer.. You said one of your problems is you're easily distracted during sex and find it difficult to keep your mind on track. This is one of the biggest obstacles for us. The article on the newshe website addresses this in the context of women with children, but it applies to women without children just as well. (see below) Why won't your husband do oral sex? Is it because he's afraid he doesn't know what to do, or because he thinks it's "icky"? If it's the latter, that is selfish of him and he needs to get over that real fast. It would bother me to be with someone who thought that way of my body, especially since most of us women are very clean down there and there's nothing gross about it. What he's touching his mouth to is on the outside of your body and is the exact same thing you do to him when you give him oral sex. I'm sorry but selfish lovers may be successful in the beginning of a relationship, but they are not going to get anywhere with most women, especially over the long haul. Why does he refuse to go to therapy with you? Tell him it takes two to tango. He can't be so closed minded about things and at the same time expect everything to work out as he wishes. <P>------<BR>Recognizing the Problem of Women's Sexual Distractibility: Getting to Orgasm is Like Taking a Great Dane for a Walk<BR>---Adapted from Sex Talk, Zoldbrod and Dockett, p. 92-92, 2002)<P>One way in which men and women just can't understand each other is that many men find sex "relaxing." But it may be that the reason that most men think sex is so relaxing is that for most of them, sex = orgasm. Men have what is called the "point of ejaculatory inevitability," which means that if they get aroused enough, they are pretty certain to climax. So sex is kind of a done deal. Initiate sex, and pleasure is sure to follow, goes men's reasoning. Women are more distractible, and orgasms are not a given in female sexuality. For women, sexual pleasure takes work and intention.<P>It can sometimes be more work for women than men to become aroused in the first place (think of the crockpot image), and it is certainly more difficult for women to stay aroused. There is no point of inevitable orgasm for women. Instead, women can get distracted and lose their arousal at any point in the sexual encounter. Once arousal is lost, women need to start to build their arousal all over again from the beginning, if they want to have an orgasm and, often, women don't have the energy or desire to rebuild that huge edifice again.<P>This is why I always encourage women to think of pursuing their own arousal and orgasm as if they are taking a Great Dane dog for a walk. You know how dogs always want to wander off the path, sniffing something exciting, getting lost in their own worlds? Well, if orgasm is your goal, you have to take control of your sexuality and your thoughts and not let your unconscious wander. You need to be talking sex to yourself and nothing else. You need to control that dog and yank it back on the path just as you need to yank your thoughts back to the sexual pleasure path.<P>ANOTHER TIP:<P>Here's how to use this image to help you have an orgasm. Give yourself permission to be selfish in sex, and if you want to have an orgasm, work on asking for what you need from your partner in the sexual encounter.<P>Start out by imagining that you are the one making love, and you are in control of your own thoughts. So imagine you are with your partner, and you find that your attention is wandering, say to the brownies you have to bake for your son's first grade class, or the curtains you have to pick up for the living room or some other distraction. Now picture yourself CONSCIOUSLY STOPPING your extraneous thoughts. Yank that Great Dane onto the path. Now imagine asking your partner to do something to your body that will re-direct you into pleasurable feelings. If you practice this exercise in your imagery before you are in bed, it will be easier to do it when you are making love.<P>I think the Newsweek article missed the point about women's sexuality in saying that "in reality, no one is too busy to have sex, because the sex act itself doesn't take very long"( p.45, June 30th 2003). Women who are harried, distracted, depleted, and out of touch with their bodies cannot be physically PRESENT or get pleasure if the sex act is brief and routinized, and getting to a climax at the end of a busy day may take time and effort.<P><p>[This message has been edited by WREN (edited 09 August 2003).]

"I would love therapy, I think it would only help. But I am having a very difficult task of finding anyone to help. I tried it that one time and the person was no help at all. After she told me my husband was addicted to sex. (I still don't believe he is, I don't think it's unreasonable that a 26 year old male would want it a couple times a week), she asked if I thought he was cheating on me. I told her now. She said she would be surprised if he wasn't."<P>You are right. Your hubby is not addicted to sex. Having sex more than once a week is not an addiction. I am appalled at how this therapist treated you. I also doubt your husband is cheating on you. With that said... Your husband may need to go to therapy (some other Dr ofcourse) alone for him to come to grips with the fact that he is not the problem. I find that having my husband being understanding and not pressuring me to be very helpful. And as it is now we are having sex maybe once or twice a month. I do not have sex with him just to make him feel better. I have to be in the mood. Doing it just for him made things worse for me on the psychological side. BTW, I am 25 and also had a hard time with losing my libido. Thanks to women like the Berman's and other Drs that are doing important research hope is not lost. You may want to check out Greg's website. He has a list of Doctors that are open minded about FSD. Oh, one more thing, you do have to request all the hormonal tests at your drs office. They do not do them automatically. I have also found that it helps to write out your problems, when they started, how they make you feel, your medical history, etc and give it to the Dr. It makes it much easier than having to put everything into words at the drs appoinment. Good Luck

I just wanted to comment on one thing. <P>"Men have what is called the "point of ejaculatory inevitability," which means that if they get aroused enough, they are pretty certain to climax."<P>Women have the exact same thing, our bodies aren't that different. Basic biology. I'd be happy to quote lots of references.

I'd be interested in your references. I sure don't have that. I can be a second from climaxing and lose my train of thought and be back at square one.

<B>Jen</B><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> I think about sex a lot, but that is mainly because of our problem with it. <BR>I will try the high-dose fish oil and zinc. Worth a shot and I'll let everyone know if I see an improvement. <BR>I would love therapy, I think it would only help. But I am having a very difficult task of finding anyone to help. I tried it that one time and the person was no help at all. After she told me my husband was addicted to sex. (I still don't believe he is, I don't think it's unreasonable that a 26 year old male would want it a couple times a week), she asked if I thought he was cheating on me. I told her now. She said she would be surprised if he wasn't. I told my husband that and so he didn't listen to anything else she has had to say. I don't believe he is and he has never given me any indication or sign that he is. <P>I don't have any blood work done that I could get results from. I haven't seen a doctor in a long time and was thinking of getting a wellness exam anyway, would they do this blood work for that? Is this special testing I would have to request? Even if my insurance wouldn't cover it, it would be worth it.<P>I don't have exactly what T cream I was taking, I'll have to check. But I still have it at home and I didn't take it as long as 90 days. I was told to rub it on every other day. I will start that again and this time, I'll give it much longer. <BR>I have the first two books mentioned, I'm still reading the For Women Only book, I'll try the resurrecting sex.<BR></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>A few thoughts.<P>Rather than "thinking" about sex, how often do you fantasize? About how you would like to pleasure yourself, or have your partner pleasure you, about sexual activity etc. This is a better measure, though by no means a tell-all measuring stick.<P>I would certainly explore therapy. It might be useful. However, I'd read Schnarch's book first. I think you'll find that the therapy you need you both can do yourselves together. Plus, the ideas he gives about "connected" sex are thought provoking, even if one can't exactly figure out all the details to make it happen right away. (There are lots of ideas in there that sound excellent, but will probably take time to put into practice, or may cause you to wonder - "How do I actually make that happen." Regardless, I think the ideas will be powerful eye-openers.)<P>One other thingÂ… I'm not sure about your religious beliefs etc, but many of the same ideas are in another book. "Sex for Christians," though from a different moral/ethical perspective. If you can read really fast like I can, that might be worth a look. We found it helpful because some of our moral beliefs probably hindered our growth into really embracing our sexuality and actually tackling our problems. (This isn't at all a comprehensive explanation of our situation, but a look at a small slice.)<P>Your experience with "therapy" isn't much different than ours. I don't believe that what we experienced is therapy, and frankly, your therapist should be paying you to sit and listen to her drivel. (The therapist needs a swift kick in the backside IMHO.) If you are able to find a good therapist, than your experience should be lots better. It should have a realistic timeframe for solving your problems too. But, again, see what you can resolve yourselves. I think many people are able to do perfectly well solving their own psychological issues. Not all, but quite a few IMO.<P>Blood-work. This whole work-up will not be cheap. However, if you do have insurance, it should cover it, taking into account your deductible etc. (You should check though. However, do so carefully and without giving them an idea who you are and what you're up to. Otherwise, I suspect they will do their best to screw you. That's just the way most insurance companies are.)<P>I'm not sure you'll be able to get a local provider to do what you're asking for. You're welcome to try though. But unless the provider really seems to know exactly what you're asking for, I'd make sure to really nail down the details. You've probably seen the blood-work pages at our website by now. One big detail is how Total and Free T are measured. Don't let them use RIA. You could easily spend $400-$700 for all the lab-work for the tests we specify if your insurance doesn't pay. You are right though, even though this is costly, it would be a big help to know where things stood. <P>Next, let us know about your T cream. The label should tell you what it is. But, I would hesitate to use it unless we knew you needed T in the first place. It could very well be, that your T levels are fine. (I know several cases where simply boosting the estrogen levels did a bunch for desire, lubrication etc, so T isn't the only answer. As I noted before, prolactin can really kill desire, and thyroid can have serious impact on energy levels and function too.) So, first step seems to me to be, find a good provider who knows their way around. Get a good physical review, including hormones. At the same time, read Schnarch and start working on your relationship. Go from there, but see where these things lead you first. Don't try to look too far down the road. Things will change more quickly and more often than you would ever expect.<P>We really wish you the best. I know from personal experience that the road isn't easy, but you can beat it. We have made tremendous progress and I can't begin to tell you how different things are today. I hope the same for you!<P>Again, Best wishes!<P><B>Zane, Wren</B><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><BR>Women have the exact same thing, our bodies aren't that different. Basic biology. I'd be happy to quote lots of references.<BR></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>I agree with Zane. However, the origonal statement in the article above is *really* misleading. (And please, sex is like walking a Great Dane?! Goodness. If that is the best metaphor the writer can come up with, then get someone to ghost write the thing.)<P><BR>It's as if the author believes that male "ejaculatory inevitability" is way before orgasm, like 15 minutes or something. It certainly isn't that way for me. 3-5 seconds, perhaps 10-15 seconds if the encounter is a torrid and super arousing affair. But no way is it a minute or more.<P>Perhaps most men are emotional "cave-men" who say "Ugh - need sex, wife submit. Ugh - done. Thog happy!" but that's not how life is for me. Focusing on sex and the pleasure of my partner *is* really important. When I feel my partner isn't there with me, I'm pretty distracted too. Tension and conflict can have an impact on my ability to sexually function too.<P>So, in short, I think men are quite a bit more complex than the author gives them credit for. I also think Zane in general, when she says women and men are a lot more alike than different, is really right.<P>------------------<BR>[Also note, I am *not* a doctor, and this is not intended as medical advice - Please talk to your doctor about your concerns.<BR><p>[Note: This message has been edited by NEWSHE Moderator]

Barbara Keesling, Lou Paget...give me some time, I'll find more.<P>It's actually not so cut and dried with men either. With tantra men can learn not to be quite so inevitable, specifically with ejaculation connected to orgasm.

Actually, what men can do is learn to sense in themselves when they are right BEFORE the point of ejaculatory inevitability. Once they're past that point it is inevitable, be it 5 seconds or whatever. Women can be actually starting to orgasm and lose it completely if they lose the train of thought mentally.