His and Her Health

I take great issue with Jennifer Berman passing off her personal choice about cesarean section as a professional opinion. <P>She is a Urologist and as such, she's the type of doctor women seek out to repair their botched vaginal deliveries. That's all she sees, and apparenly all she wants to know. She doesn't get to see the women who have botched c-secs, like me. Those women go to plastic surgeons and general surgeons to repair their separated muscles and hernias, as I will have to do. I'm sorry she was so damaged by the birth of her first baby, just as I am sorry for any woman who experiences genital mutilation at the hands of an OB. There have been studies done, though, that show that pelvic prolapse and urinary incontinance is more related to birth interventions (forceps, vaccum, episiotomies and even epidurals because women can injure themselves while numb) than to vaginal birth itself. <P>Interesting that she wrote this piece BEFORE the baby was born. I think she'll have more post-op pain than she is planning. Pain from c-sec recovery can last for weeks and months...and it actually took me about a year to feel back to normal after each of my 3 c-secs. My vaginal delivery of my own 9 pound baby, which didn't entail any genital damage, took me about a minute to recover from. No incontenance afterwards. In fact, my vaginal delivery actualy fixed some of the incontinence I experienced from my 3 previous pregnancies. C-sec isn't the panacea that some women think it is. Just the stress of carrying large babies to full-term can cause the pelvic damage that they are trying to protect against with c-sec. C-sec isn't protective, as pregnancy itself is often the culprit. <P>Anyway, I hope she enjoyed her surgery, but I wish she'd shut up about the praises of c-sec. C-sec was developed as an abdominal rescue for babies in distress, and they should be kept that way. I'm disturbed when mainstream experts spout off nonsense...because it just perpetuates bad OB care.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Redcatnip:<BR><B>I take great issue with Jennifer Berman passing off her personal choice about cesarean section as a professional opinion. <P>She is a Urologist and as such, she's the type of doctor women seek out to repair their botched vaginal deliveries. That's all she sees, and apparenly all she wants to know. She doesn't get to see the women who have botched c-secs, like me. Those women go to plastic surgeons and general surgeons to repair their separated muscles and hernias, as I will have to do. I'm sorry she was so damaged by the birth of her first baby, just as I am sorry for any woman who experiences genital mutilation at the hands of an OB. There have been studies done, though, that show that pelvic prolapse and urinary incontinance is more related to birth interventions (forceps, vaccum, episiotomies and even epidurals because women can injure themselves while numb) than to vaginal birth itself. <P>Interesting that she wrote this piece BEFORE the baby was born. I think she'll have more post-op pain than she is planning. Pain from c-sec recovery can last for weeks and months...and it actually took me about a year to feel back to normal after each of my 3 c-secs. My vaginal delivery of my own 9 pound baby, which didn't entail any genital damage, took me about a minute to recover from. No incontenance afterwards. In fact, my vaginal delivery actualy fixed some of the incontinence I experienced from my 3 previous pregnancies. C-sec isn't the panacea that some women think it is. Just the stress of carrying large babies to full-term can cause the pelvic damage that they are trying to protect against with c-sec. C-sec isn't protective, as pregnancy itself is often the culprit. <P>Anyway, I hope she enjoyed her surgery, but I wish she'd shut up about the praises of c-sec. C-sec was developed as an abdominal rescue for babies in distress, and they should be kept that way. I'm disturbed when mainstream experts spout off nonsense...because it just perpetuates bad OB care.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Boy! talk about bitter! I don't see how delivering a 9 lb. baby vaginally could do anything but destroy my vagina!!! Maybe some of us are built diferently thus that is why some of us end up with c-sections. I personally am glad that I was spared. That is what my husband and I call it after hearing all of the things that some people say about their sex lives after vaginal birth, "SPARED". As for the damage that pregnancy does what an excuse! It is always natural birth advocates that toss that one around. I have had two sons by cesarean section. I carried them both high and didn't gain a lot of weight. I gained the normal amount. In fact, I have gained more since then due to health problems completely unrelated to pregnancy. When I went to a radiologist for some heavy period problems to have a transvaginal, she asked me if I had ever been pregnant upon examining me. It wasn't until she saw the rather obvious scarring that she knew that I had had cesareans. She said that she thought that I hadn't had a baby never mind babies up to that moment. I think that it is women who enjoy their sex lives who care about saving their vaginas. Not just women who want not to ever need depends napkins or diapers or whatever they are. I am shocked by some of the new commercials on t.v. showing relatively young women riding horses and doing sports who have leakage problems! I have never had that and certainly c-sections or pregnancy never affected me in that regard. My mother and sister also have had c-secions. I was particularly interested to find out from my 63 year old mother if she had developed incontinence with age. She said absolutely not. My sister is younger than I and she is the same. She has never experienced any incontinence. My mother had me and my sister at Stanford University years ago. She was allowed to labor for 6 hours then the doctor (who knew our family) said that he was going to do what he would do for any daughter of his and gave her a c-section. My sister was born by scheduled cesarean 2 years later at S.R.I. Anyway, my little poll has shown that c-sections spare you from lots. If you gain a lot of weight during pregnancy, have a c-section and then are incontinent you have kind of done it to yourself! <P>My cesarean scar ain't pretty. My first cesarean scar was perfect but they had to cut a lot of old scar tissue for the 2nd cesarean. But, a scar like that is vastly preferable to having a nine pound baby squeeze through. I can't imagine how you could be the same after that. The whole point is that many many women aren't. You see so many women telling their stories in magazine articles and they are shocking. But, even more telling, I have talked to several women friends who say their sex lives will never be the same. Plus, my husband comes home with the work jokes about women that I KNOW. These men say things like their wives are like a wet bucket or it's like an axe handle in a cow pie to have sex. Man!, I don't know what to feel first when I hear stories like that, anger at the men or relief that I have had cesareans and that sex feels exactly the same as before!<P>Jennifer Berman sees lots of botched up births for a reason. There are lots! She is entitled to her experience. I don't think that it is such an isolated one. I think that she is really brave for breaking the silence. There is a taboo against any critism of the way things are. Partly out of embarrassment for those women who are ruined by childbirth. It is taboo to do any thing but make sneaky and mean jokes about big, stretched and leaky female organs. It's just tragic what happens to some women. The best thing that we can do is to talk loudly about it until things really change! I think that how one has her babies should be an individual choice. We choose to do elective surgery all of the time! Some of it is to correct childbirth damage!<BR>Sincerely, Poppy<P>

I gave birth vaginally to my 9lb, 10 oz baby boy last May. I too suffered a temporary incontinence through the last three months of my pregnancy (he was breech and used my bladder as a soccer ball most days) and for about 2 months after his birth.<P>I can confidently say, 17 months later, that my sex life was, is and will remain WONDERFUL, I can hold my bladder just fine, thank you very much and that I would choose a vaginal birth over being sawed in half, having my bladder & uterus laid on my stomach while the baby is removed and suffering post-op pain ANY DAY.<P>To say that a c/s is the *best* way to have a baby is not only ignorant and uninformed, (one dr's bizarre idea of the ideal birth is no expert) it is demeaning to the millions of women who are FORCED to have a c/s and be denied their birthing rights.<P><P>------------------<BR>Marianne<BR>Mama to Pauly 5-31-02

[QUOTE]Originally posted by poppykrause:<BR>[ Plus, my husband comes home with the work jokes about women that I KNOW. These men say things like their wives are like a wet bucket or it's like an axe handle in a cow pie to have sex. <P>Sounds to me like these work buddies of your husband's are....er....overcompensating for a THEIR lack of something...<P>In all honesty, a little exercise (Kegals or regular working out) will help tighten things back up! In fact, exercise can make things a little too tight if you aren't having sex often.<P>------------------<BR>Marianne<BR>Mama to Pauly 5-31-02

For me, the issue is education. For those people that choose to have a CSection, I have no interest in debate or trying to change anyone's mind. I do think that too many women in this country (my state the 3rd highest)have non elected CSections. I personally know about a dozen women who planned a natural birth and ended up with a Csection due to not knowing their rights (no fetal distress). <P>I delivered two boys completely naturally. My first (at 35) was 9lbs 9oz and my 2nd was 9lbs 5oz. I am 5'2". I had simple, uncomplicated births and wouldn't have it any other way. The incontinence is temporary (and "incontinence" is a bit strong for an occasional leak during a sneeze) and I also enjoy a healthy sex life with my wonderful husband. <P>To try to convince women that it is better to elect a Csection is to me, ludicrious. According to Mothering magazine, at least 4 times as many women die of causes related to Cesarean birth as those related to vaginal birth. <P>I do lean toward the holistic and as such do believe that our bodies are perfect for birthing, and that the entire process is beautiful and needed. I do also believe that there are times when Cesareans ARE necessary for the health of the baby or mother. I have many friends who have had them but I believe that most, had they been more informed, would have not chosen that route. And it is a false statement to say that birthing via cesarean will avoid incontinence...as many of the CS moms I know have had to address the same issues as those who have given birth vaginally. <P>Our Cesarean rate is rising again, for many reasons. BEFORE you give birth, educate yourself, learn the repercussions, the reasons for a baby traveling through the birth canal, learn what happens to your body and how resilient it is (if you are healthy). <P>There's no reason why those who choose the empowerment of natural birth can't have it!!<P>Oops..edited to add my name!<BR>Lauren <BR>Mom to Connor (11/20/98) and Owen (4/15/02)<BR>both delivered vaginally.<p>[This message has been edited by APmama (edited 06 November 2003).]

Wow, I was amazed by this article. It raised so many issues for me it is hard to know where to begin.<P>First lets start with the poor birth experiences with vaginal births. This article would lead you to believe that it was merely the vaginal birth that caused all the issues. In truth if you do a little research it might go a long way, having an epidural increases the risk of poor vaginal birth by about 7 times. Really you might say but yes it is true. Also having an episiotomy is simply genital mutilation and there is no good reason for doing one. Just imagine for a moment will you when you try to pull a piece of fabric in half but it won't go, but then you put a tiny cut into it and it just rips like a hot knife through butter, that is the cause and effect of that procedure.<P>Incontinance? Now it is true women have this problem. Due exclusively to vaginal birth? NO! Me, my mother, my sister, 5 very close friends, mother in law, aunt, both grand mothers and great grand mothers gave birth vaginally to at least 2 some 3 children all with no incontinance. This may seem amazing but true, the ages ranged (great grandmothers and 1 grandmother have passed) from 24 to 91 years old.<P>Sex after birth. Well I'm happy, my husband would like it a little more often but that has nothing to do with the birth. The muscles of my vagina are still strong enough to push out a tampon with out using my hands. <P>My births, I have 2 children born with no medication, intervention only good strong cometment to a healthy birth. My son was 7lbs 12 oz and took 48 hours to come into the world, my daugher was 7lbs 7oz and came in 10 hours. Both labors started 8 days past the estimated due dates.<P>When birth is right and educated it can be the most powerful live awakening experience you will ever have. Not for one moment should any woman beleive that they are capable of any less. Nor that their bodies aren't made to birth their babies. Lets try to help women see that they can do it with less intervention rather than to have them get cut open. C-sections are a horrible procedure, I've seen them up close, if they weren't in a hospital it would be considered mutilation and(in the hospital)you have to pay for it.<P>Thank you,<BR>Krista<BR>Mother to 2 wonderful home birthed Angels<P>P.S. To the woman who replied less than curtious in regards to a 9lb baby born vaginally. Grow up!! How dare you mock her for doing something so amazing. You may not choose this path but she was strong enough to do it. And as far as preserving your vagina she did just that and birthed her baby the way her body was made.

For those who may be persuaded by Dr. Berman's article, I think that it is important to acknowledge that there are many male and female OBs and other health practitioners that understand the dangers inherent in cesareans and would recommend them only when medically necessary. <BR>The fact that there is a 'debate' in our society about the safety of vaginal childbirth is truly baffling but intriguing at the same time. The more that I have read and researched on this topic the more convinced that I am that obstetrical practice in the United States is driven by ideology, cultural beliefs about science and technology,and politics rather than scientific evidence. I would encourage any woman who wants to know more about this issue, out of concern for her health and that of her baby, to join me and others in becoming an active and informed consumer of health care services-- as it is truly a case of 'buyer beware' when it comes to obstetrics.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Krista:<BR><B>Wow, I was amazed by this article. It raised so many issues for me it is hard to know where to begin.<P>First lets start with the poor birth experiences with vaginal births. This article would lead you to believe that it was merely the vaginal birth that caused all the issues. In truth if you do a little research it might go a long way, having an epidural increases the risk of poor vaginal birth by about 7 times. Really you might say but yes it is true. Also having an episiotomy is simply genital mutilation and there is no good reason for doing one. Just imagine for a moment will you when you try to pull a piece of fabric in half but it won't go, but then you put a tiny cut into it and it just rips like a hot knife through butter, that is the cause and effect of that procedure.<P>Incontinance? Now it is true women have this problem. Due exclusively to vaginal birth? NO! Me, my mother, my sister, 5 very close friends, mother in law, aunt, both grand mothers and great grand mothers gave birth vaginally to at least 2 some 3 children all with no incontinance. This may seem amazing but true, the ages ranged (great grandmothers and 1 grandmother have passed) from 24 to 91 years old.<P>Sex after birth. Well I'm happy, my husband would like it a little more often but that has nothing to do with the birth. The muscles of my vagina are still strong enough to push out a tampon with out using my hands. <P>My births, I have 2 children born with no medication, intervention only good strong cometment to a healthy birth. My son was 7lbs 12 oz and took 48 hours to come into the world, my daugher was 7lbs 7oz and came in 10 hours. Both labors started 8 days past the estimated due dates.<P>When birth is right and educated it can be the most powerful live awakening experience you will ever have. Not for one moment should any woman beleive that they are capable of any less. Nor that their bodies aren't made to birth their babies. Lets try to help women see that they can do it with less intervention rather than to have them get cut open. C-sections are a horrible procedure, I've seen them up close, if they weren't in a hospital it would be considered mutilation and(in the hospital)you have to pay for it.<P>Thank you,<BR>Krista<BR>Mother to 2 wonderful home birthed Angels<P>P.S. To the woman who replied less than curtious in regards to a 9lb baby born vaginally. Grow up!! How dare you mock her for doing something so amazing. You may not choose this path but she was strong enough to do it. And as far as preserving your vagina she did just that and birthed her baby the way her body was made. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I feel spared from what women have had to go through for time immemorial. We don't drive horses and carts anymore. We are immunized. Lots of things that aren't at all natural improve our lives. I cannot be persuaded that natural childbirth wouldn't affect my sex life. I have a hard time with a bigger man never mind a baby's head. This means that with an average guy sex feels intense. I can't even imagine what something the size of a baby's head and body would do to me. If you notice many more upper class women are getting cesareans. It isn't vaim to want to preserve your sex life. Women have the same right to a powerful sex life that men do. I know that if similar things happened to men's bodies with childbirth there would be OPTIONS! I agree that we are made to have babies. However we arn't made to have them and remain the same. We aren't members of small tribes and villages as we have been historically. Men have choices. Their bodies remain the same when they procreate. We are now part of a global community and people have choices. While a man may be proud of his trooper of a natural child bearing wife she will be the one he leaves for a woman more well preserved. It isn't fair. It isn't right. But, it is what happens. There are many reasons why women should have the right to choose. They should be able to preserve their sexuality and sexual power. I am tired of seeing the Jerry Springer syndrome where a woman rages that she has bourne a man's babies yet he has left her for another ( very often less birthed woman). I am a feminist I think that women have the right to be informed of what really happens not only with cesarean birth but natural childbirth. I have heard countless experts state that there is no way that the vagina returns to it's prebaby state after natural childbirth. And, in the same breath they state the obvious which is that sex doesn't feel the same and, "do your kegels". Kegels may strengthen but they do not make tighter! If you don't think that men care about tight it is because they are telling you what you want to hear. I am as concerned about my own sexual pleasure (much more, actually) as any man's that I'm with. I have to live with myself for the rest of my life though the partner may change. <P> I notice that the main outcry against cesarean comes from women who have been through at least one natural childbirth. My cesareans, however horrible you may imagine them to have been, are over with long ago and my sons happy and healthy, thanks to God. I am quite happy to have forgone natural childbirth. One of the first things that I noticed after the birth of my first son was that sex was exactly the same. I wear the same 65 diaphragm. I am very happy about that. I find it sort of pathetic that anyone would give being able to push out a tampon as an example of being in great shape vaginally. Can't everyone do that? All that that makes me think is Wow!, you mean there is some question as to whether you can do that? It is kind of like the woman who was so proud to be able to hold a pencil in her vagina. Who cannot? I am a feminist and as such feel that I have the right to determine my own sexual and reproductive fate to the degree that it is reasonable. Think of all of the women who have plastic surgery to repair things after the fact!<BR><P>------------------<BR>poppykrause