His and Her Health

I'm a 41 year old female, married, two adult children. I have been with my husband 25 years (since we were in high school) and love him very much. I have NEVER experienced an orgasm in my life. I've tried masturbating and everything. I might as well rub the top of my head. Nothing. I've gone for so long in my life like this, that I've grown to despise sex. My husband has always been a very sexual person, and has never (up until recently) "backed off" of sex with me. He's aware that I'm non-orgasmic. This has put a tremendous strain on our relationship. I feel he has cheated on me in the past, and currently feel he has a "piece" on the side, since I'm not giving him what he needs. I'm so despondent about this subject, that I've ignored it through the years, allowing it to consume my mental state. Now, I'm looking into finallly seeking medical treatment for my condition. I just feel that now that I'm 41 and have had a hysterectomy 8 years ago, It's too late to do anything about it. All I can do is cry. Can someone out there give me some words of encouragement that I may be normal one day? My husband agreed to go to counseling with me, so I believe he's willing to try and work this out, but I still feel less than normal, and sometimes wonder if there's any help for me.

Anorgasmia (never had an orgasm) is one of the sexual problems that is most responsive to treatment! This should encourage you to ask for help from your doctor. Your doctor can refer you to someone who has the expertise to treat you. Make sure you involve your husband as well.

Hmmm...I'm one of the most pro-orgasm posters on this board, but I don't think that's your problem. If you have a good level of desire, sex can be fun even if you don't orgasm. I mean, certainly you should try to achieve orgasm if possible, but just the ability to have an orgasm doesn't mean that you will want sex.<P>Did you have any sexual pleasure at all during sex? Did you get aroused, lubricated, etc.? Did you enjoy kissing?

Thank you so much for your response. I'm encouraged that there is hope after all. In response to the desire issue, I think that over the years the desire has diminished due to the mental impact of not "being normal". This became a touchy issue very early in our relationship, but a few years had passed before I was able to get up the nerve to tell my husband that I've never experienced satisfaction. He was very hurt that I had been "faking" it. Time has healed that wound, but it hasn't erased the problem. In answer to the question of enjoyment, I would have to say "no". Especially when it was out in the open that I didn't experience anything. Over time, resentment set in, and the longer it went on, it became more of a "task to get over with" in my mind than anything else. As I stated earlier, I have no sensation whatsoever during sex. I believe that due to the ignoring it for so long, it has damaged me mentally, compounding the problem even more so. I'm sure with treatment of the physical aspect of my problem, the mental problem will also be addressed. I only wish I hadn't ignored it for so long, but it has been a very painful and embarrassing subject, and now that I'm older, I only hope it's not too late.

Well okay then *cracking knuckles* let's get to work. First of all, are you still able to experience feelings of desire, maybe not toward your husband and sex, but from watching a romantic movie or reading a romance novel? Are you able to get aroused; are you able to lubricate?<P>If I were you I would see a urologist specializing in women. We can't name specific doctors' names on this board, but there are other places we can. He or she will probably do bloodwork to test your hormone levels too, besides testing your sensation and circulation in the genitals. I see you posted in the other old thread on lack of sensation. Yohimbe should be used very carefully; it does have a number of strong side effects. On the other hand, if you try it once and respond to it you might be a good candidate for Viagra. But the first thing on the sensation front I would try is getting a good vibrator, if you don't have one already. A Hitachi Magic Wand or an Eroscillator are both very powerful vibrators.<P>You are already in counseling which is good. On that front, I would also recommend a book, "Resurrecting Sex" by David Schnarch.<P>As for desire, if your bloodwork shows you have low testosterone levels you may be put on T treatment, which may help. Also I would recommend reading erotica geared toward women; there's quite a bit of it online for free. I know you may be trying to do all this for your husband to try to help your marriage, but if you can also do it for you, it might make things easier. Finally there is my (unproven) diet which may help things; here it is.<P>First of all, no stimulants--no coffee, no tea, no cigarettes, no antidepressants (obviously do not go off of antidepressants to do this), no ginkgo or ginseng or any other herbal stimulant. And no hormonal birth control like birth control pills.<P>Second, eat a couple ounces of dark chocolate every day. <P>Third, vitamin supplements. Take a good multivitamin (with 15 mg of zinc) every day, extra 400 IU of vitamin E, extra C (I drink lots of orange juice), fish oil six grams, full load of calcium/magnesium/zinc (1000/400/15), and iron (check with your doctor about the iron). I take 27 mg of iron every other day. Do not take high-dose fish oil like this if you are on blood-thinning medication or aspirin therapy.<P>Fourth, exercise your PC muscles. Kegels are not enough. I recommend vaginal cone weights, work your way up to the fifth weight.<P>Fifth, try the Zone diet or the Atkins diet for meals before having relations.<BR>

Thanks again for your reply. Unfortunately, even desire is an issue. I don't get aroused with anything. Books, movies, etc. Nothing. Your suggestions about diet, chocolate, etc. are very helpful, and I will give it a try. I get no sensations with a vibrator, but I'll look into getting one anyway. Morale is down really low right now. I agree that I need to seek help for myself moreso than for my husband. I really don't think he's even interested in me anymore anyway. Thanks for the suggestions though. I'll keep looking at the posts for encouragement.

I'm wondering where Greg is. He has a lot more information on current medical treatments for this sort of thing. With the hysterectomy, I'm not sure how much my diet will help. If you do try it, please post the results here whether good or bad, because I don't have enough information on how well it helps women who have had hysterectomies. Although theoretically it should help.<P>But really you should also be getting a specialist's care too, in your situation. Have you read some of Greg's posts in other threads?<P>If you have zero sensation down there, you may also want to consider trying Zestra. Can't hurt.

Here's a few thoughts.<P>(Personally, given what you've said, I think you have either low estrogen and/or low testosterone. However, I think getting these tested would be one of the "criteria" before considering boosting T or E levels.<P>But that said, here's some info that I often post. (Given what you've said, I think your situation seems quite similar to ours, though not identical.)<P>You've already given us some of these answers, but all the items highlighted below can effect sexual function. Think about them, and answer for any that you haven't already - with those answers, we may be able to help point you in the direction that is likely to be productive.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><BR>If you're asking about FSD issues, we need to know as much of the following as possible.<P><UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Age? <LI>Pre/Peri/Post Menopause?<LI>Birth Control (Type, length of time you've been taking it etc.)<LI>Any Sexual Abuse?<LI>Children<LI>Medications (Birth-control, Anti-depressants etc)<LI>Spouse/Partner Relationship Health?<LI>History of the FSD issue, pre and post FSD if possible.<LI>What things you've tried.<LI>What you *think* might be the problem.<LI>Blood hormone levels done? Give us the results and norm ranges from the tests. (Make sure you get a full copy of all results and norm ranges.) </UL><BR></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Next... I have 3-4 books I often recommend. Books #1 and #3 are simply excellent. I'd get both, and more if you can afford it. I've read all of these. (Schnarch's books would be excellent for you to read WITH your hubby. I expect you'll both find them interesting. But if you can't convince him, read it yourself. <P>*Really! It's an excellent book*<P><UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>I'm Not in the Mood: What Every Woman Should Know about Improving Her Libido, by Judith Reichman - Score, 9/10 <LI>For Women Only: A Revolutionary Guide to Overcoming Sexual Dysfunction and Reclaiming Your Sex Life, by Jennifer Berman - Score 8/10 <LI>Resurrecting Sex: Resolving Sexual Problems and Rejuvenating Your Relationship by David Schnarch (One really doesn't need both of David Schnarch's books, but both are good and somewhat different. Resurrecting Sex discusses both medical and psychological causes for sexual dysfunction, where Passionate Marriage only reviews the psychological, though it's an excellent book.)<LI>Natural Hormone Balance for Women: Look Younger, Feel Stronger, and Live Life with Exuberance by Uzzi Reiss - Score N/A <LI>The Big O: Orgasms: How to Have Them, Give Them, and Keep Them Coming by Lou Paget - Score N/A <LI>Getting the Sex You Want, a Woman's Guide to Becoming Proud, Passionate, and Pleased in Bed by Sandra Leiblum, Ph.D. and Judith Sachs. <BR></UL><P>Finally, some words about hormones and their potential to effect sexual function.<P>Given what you've stated about no sensation, no desire, (I'm guessing no real arousal and lubrication either, but perhaps I'm wrong.) no response to erotica, little fantasy etc... I really think you may have, as I said above, low T and/or E.<P>Low testosterone can have several symptoms.<P>Testosterone is known to play a important factor in many sexual function areas such as:<BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Mood (Depression, blunted motivation, low energy, general malaise)<LI>Libido or desire<LI>Sensation (Loss of sensation in nipples and/or genetalia)<LI>Orgasm (Loss of intensity in orgasm, amount of time and/or effort required to reach orgasm, or even total loss or absence of orgasm)<BR></UL><P>However, testosterone isn't the only important hormone, and boosting T levels, if not needed can be harmful. So, here is a list of very important hormones that are key to sexual function health. <P>I'd recommend that you have these checked. There is additional information on this at the website listed in my profile.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><BR>First thing. <P>Call every doc who has run *any* blood work on you for the last couple of years. Request that they either mail, fax, carrier pidgeon, etc *FULL* copies of all results to you. This is really important, and something that you should ask for in the future. <P>(Don't accept *only* a "reading" over the phone, though I'd take careful notes if they offer. Then ask for them to mail or fax. If they refuse, politely inform them that you are legally entitled to full copies of your medical records, and that they need to get with the program.)<P>Post those results here, along with the ranges they give as "Normal."<P><BR>Probably the most important test(s) in relation to desire disorder/ low libido, arousal disorder and sensation issues are:<P><UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Total and Free T by equilibrium dialysis if possible (see an explanation of this in the blood-work section of the website listed in my profile.)<LI>Thyroid Function Tests (TSH, Thyroxine/T4)<LI>Prolactin / PRL (A blood test that measures the amount of the hormone prolactin.)<LI>LH / ICSH (Luteinizing hormone) <LI>FSH (Follicle Stimulating Hormone)<LI>Estradiol<LI>SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin)<LI>DHEA and DHEAS</UL><P>There are some additional issues, if you've not had your tests done yet.<P>Get your Total and Free T levels measured with a test called "equilibrium dialysis." The only other reliable method we recommend is the Free Androgen Index, sometimes also called the Free Testosterone Index, which is the index of Total T/SHBG. This issue is incredibly important. (The cheapest and most widely used test is RIA. RIA is *completely* unreliable to measure T levels in women, especially those levels found in women with very low testosterone. In fact, the FDA is currently working to either force the makers of the RIA tests to show its accuracy in women, or forbid their use in women.)<P>Have your blood drawn in the morning hours, and during the middle third of your cycle, about days 8-15. (This piece is probably not of immense importance, though it currently is thought to give the most accurate picture of your T levels. The monthly cycle doesn't apply to those on hormonal birth control since you're not ovulating. Post-menopausal women don't generally have to worry about either, it appears, and thus blood can be drawn anytime.)<P>The assay methods for all the other tests are generally just fine. <P>The problem with Free T, is the extremely low levels in women. Accurately determining Free T levels, especially at the lower end of the normal range, much less those below the range are very difficult. Equilibrium dialysis is to our knowledge the only assay that can properly determine Free T values over the whole range. <P><B>Notes on the FAI.</B><BR>The Free Androgen Index is calculated by taking Total Testosterone in noml/L and dividing by SHBG in nmol/L<BR>(Total T nmol/L / SHBG in nmol/L)<P>Total T is not often given in nmol/L, but ng/dl. To convert to nmol/L, multiply the value in ng/dL by 3.467.<P><B>Example:</B> Total T of 10ng/dL = 353.634 nmol/L.<BR>If SHBG was 80 nmol, the FAI would be 0.4333.<BR></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Finally, in closing, I strongly recommend that you find a FSD professional to assist you. It won't be cheap, and som things almost certainly won't be covered by your insurance, but I think, even if it is only for yourself, it will be worth it.<P>You can find some of my posts here and at the forum on the website listed in my profile that will give you more info about us. In brief, the results we got from T treatment, were pretty astounding. (Her T levels were *really* low, though, so don't assume our solution will be yours, though I think there's a good chance it might be.)<P>But, finding the right provider is really difficult. We've found a unique solution that is working great for us, but for most, going and seeing a *specialist* is almost the only option. Many providers don't know which hormones to test, what physical issues to look for, and how to read the test results, and finally, even how to treat, should the results come back "abnormal."<P>If you want help looking for a provider, please ask. We can't do that here, as it's not allowed. An email to me, or a visit to the website listed in my profile might be of assistance there.<P>I'm sorry for the huge post, and all the information, but I thought I should include it all. If we can be of any assistance, just ask your follow-ups. We're more than glad to help. (I, however, have been exceedingly busy the last few weeks, so replies from me may be tardy, or brief. There are others here, Dona and Zane, especially, who are very helpful.)<P>Best wishes,<BR>Greg<P>------------------<BR>See the icons at the top of this post for my profile and more information.<BR>Also note, I am *not* a doctor, and this is not intended as medical advice - Please talk to your doctor about your concerns.<P>(Ha! Zane, I see we posted at the exact same time. Sorry, I've been really busy.)<p>[This message has been edited by distressed_12345 (edited 08 November 2003).]

Thank you both zane and distressed very much for your posts. I have placed a call to a local therapist today, and hope to receive a call back shortly so that I can begin the process of treatment. As for my husband, our relationship is at such a strain due to my belief that he is cheating, that I believe I will go at this alone for now. He is so distant from me right now, and attached to his "cell phone" (that's a whole other story), that I don't think he's receptive to anything involving me right now, and truthfully, I'm pretty disgusted with him, too. Anyway, such is life, and I have to take care of me. I thank you both for all your input, and feel this is the beginning of a new phase in life for me.

LateInTheGame: It's likely your issues with sex have a lot to do with lack of experience/education, on both your and your husband's part. You've been with your husband since you were 16. It is highly unlikely the original cause had anything to do with a "hormonal imbalance". The odds of that being the cause of your lack of arousal are extremely small. While it is theoretically possible, the great majority of anorgasmia cases are caused by psychological, social, cultural, or relationship variables and are, therefore, best treated in therapy. If anorgasmia is treated by a qualified sex therapist who takes time to consider the many variables which can contribute to the problem, than the couple can expect a positive outcome. Research has shown a success rate of 80-90% for treatment of primary anorgasmia ("primary anorgasmia" is what you describe). You say you love your husband very much and he is willing to go to counseling with you, which says a lot about his love for you, in my opinion. I would strongly suggest you pursue this avenue with your husband. It could be the beginning of a new phase in both of your lives, TOGETHER.<p>[This message has been edited by Owner (edited 09 November 2003).]

Owner, I agree. However, with the latest happenings in our relationship, our biggest issue (or should I say MY biggest issue) i'm tackling is bigger than the the sex problem. Yes, he says he loves me, but actions do speak louder than words, and I truly within my heart feel he is having an affair. He displays all the traits, and has for some time now. I don't know if fixing the sex issue is going to rectify the cheating issue, but I'm willing to get help for myself regardless, because I refuse to waste the rest of my life away with this sex problem.

My two cents--it's one thing to not be able to orgasm during sex. But in my opinion if a woman can't orgasm by herself with a good vibrator, I think there is a physical medical issue involved, and all the talking and counseling in the world isn't going to help unless the physical issue is also resolved.

I believe the poster also said it was more than orgasm--it was lack of sensation altogether. I agree that counseling may be of assistance in her case, but some exploration of the lack of sensation might also be helpful. Lack of bloodflow could be partially responsible for this, and perhaps could have contributed to the lack of desire? I guess I am wondering if mental and physical are really feeding off one another here, and would be inclined to explore both therapeutic and physical possibilities in conjunction with one another. Is there, perhaps, a specialty clinic such as the Berman's near enough to get a full and complete workup in both areas?

LateintheGame: I'm assuming the affair is in large part a direct result of the original sexual problems between the two of you. He's craving intimacy, and that part of intimacy that makes us feel good about ourselves. That of course doesn't make it right, but I think, considering the circumstances, you can overcome this together. I wouldn't give up on the relationship if I were you.<P>Zaneblue, "But in my opinion if a woman can't orgasm by herself with a good vibrator, I think there is a physical medical issue involved" -I'm sorry but that's simply incorrect. She had sexual desire earlier on in the relationship until she started psyching herself out for being "abnormal". MANY women have "no sensation" during sexual intercourse, and they are not physically abnormal in any way, so to suggest this is simply wrong. Does she know where her clitoris is? Does her husband stimulate her there? If clitoral stimulation doesn't arouse her, does her husband stimulate her in other ways other than intercourse? It sounds a lot like inexperience/education/psychosocial, something along those lines. It's highly treatable. The worst aspect of her story is that it has taken her this long to take action. If they had taken action together earlier on in their relationship, they wouldn't have the added problems of the possible affair, husband losing interest, etc. This is why education is so important, especially in couples so young. Sometimes it may take a girl many years before she reaches an orgasm. Some women may not reach one for years after that or not at all, with or without masturbating. Some women find sexual "liberation" in their 40's or later.<P>LateintheGame: A lot of people exaggerate their own abilities in bed so take their stories with a grain of salt. The only thing that matters is your personal pleasure and what achieves that for you. Reading up on the biological aspects of female orgasm, studying manuals, even looking at educational sex videos are all good measures for understanding your body better and sorting myth from fact but ultimately, orgasm has to be experienced. You should experiment on your own at first. After looking at diagrams in books, look at your own genitals in a hand-held mirror with your legs wide apart, lying flat or with knees bent. That way, you can see what you look like before you start exploring physically. When you do, take your time and don't get hooked on the idea of climaxing straight away. Learn to enjoy your own body and let it lead you. When you're alone, you can be totally self-absorbed and that's what the act of orgasm is - a moment of pure pleasure that takes you away from everything and everyone. Some women can't orgasm because they lack the ability to remove themselves in this way. Orgasm requires focus and relaxation, clarity. It's no use if your mind is on something else. It's necessary to get rid of all these conditioned ideas and just enjoy what your body wants. You'll be amazed at how easier you'll feel once you stop judging yourself and feeling you don't measure up. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Owner (edited 09 November 2003).]

In response to some of your questions:<BR>Yes, I know where my clitoris is. No, he doesn't stimulate me there, or anywhere else. Funny that the clitoris is the reason we are dealing with this situation now. Last week, I initiated sex with him. This is saying alot, since we rarely have sex anymore, let alone my initiating it. After we were through, as he always does, he likes to get the towel and wipe me clean. He has always looked down there in the past, so this time was no different. However, THIS time, he began examining the clitoral area, and made a statement that just blew me away! He said "is THAT your clitoris?" "Wow! They cut it off!" I asked him who cut it off? He said "when you had surgery!" (I had a hysterectomy back in 1995.) He then kind of fiddled with it, like he was trying to get me to feel something, and asked "do you feel that?" Of course, I didn't get much from that interaction, especially dealing with the blow of his statement. Now I'm not stupid, but one thing I do know, is that if it looks like a duck, quacks, like a duck, then it's a duck. I later told him what that statement made me feel like. It appeared to me that he saw my clitoris in comparison to someone else's. Thing is, we've been together for 25 years, and nothing's changed down there. Why he would see me down there in a different light only resurges that he's had something to compare it recently to. Of course, he was appalled that I could "allow myself to think such a thing"! (Oh, did I tell you that he's a pastor of a church?) All the flipping of the script back on me, etc. That's when I came back to him and asked if he would be willing to try counseling, and he replied "I've been getting you to try to get help for a long time". The conversation goes on. Now he's even more distant to me than before this occurrence. He hardly stays home, and when he is there, he's mentally not really there. He keeps his cell phone off at home, but nobody ever calls him on the house phone. He does all his talking on his cell phone. Well, guess what I checked? His cell phone log, and lo and behold, I've found some numbers. I say all that to say this: Will therapy help me? Will therapy help him? Will it help us? We've been through this hurdle before, but I'm 41 years old now, and we just bought a house last year, our kids are grown, and I don't know if I should try to save what has been so devastated.