His and Her Health

I just read this online and would be very interested to hear any thoughts on this.

According to a site, One myth about sexless marriages is: "The low desire partner is hung up about sex. This is one of the greatest surprises for couples. There is a low desire partner (and a high desire partner) in every relationship, whether you have sexual problems or not. “Low desireâ€Â

I think that could be one possible explanation (out of many!) though I never thought of it in those terms.

Think about it: If you're in a marriage with someone who makes sex an unpleasant chore for you, it would probably kill your desire for sex with that person. You'd come to associate it with feeling unhappy. So even though, in another situation - with someone who turned you on and made you feel like hot stuff - you might be a high desire partner, in THIS situation you're the low desire partner. Because you've been conditioned to it by repeated experience.

Interesting thought.

Yes, it's just one of many possible explanations. Which means it's often NOT the explanation. People are much more complicated than that. The explanation sounds pat and amateurish. It sounds like the kind of thing someone would come up with if they reflect only on their own limited personal experiences, and have not widely read sexual therapy literature or had any formal training in sex therapy. In fact, I'd even guess that the author of that explanation was the "low desire" partner in a past relationship, and they now subscribe to that "victim" explanation rather than taking some responsibility for it themselves.

And what's dismissed as a myth is surely NOT always a myth. I would say that someone who's been sexually abused as a child might well be hung up about sex and exhibit "low desire".

And the discussion gives not even a hint that desire can be influenced by hormonal imbalances.

Sex911, when you say you "struggled to say out loud" do you mean you never said it, or that you had to muster the courage to say it each time? That might make a huge difference!

eva_m
That's how I took it too . . .an interesting thought to be sure. And, I think to a certain extent it could apply to some situations, mine included (along with all kinds of other stuff!).

patient
I think people are more complicated than just this one idea, you're right about that. Still, I think there might be some truth to this myth (along with the other 9 myths discussed in the article I was reading which incidentally was written by a couple of doctors). [Not sure if I'm allowed to put a link to the article here but will if the Moderator says it's okay]. For my part, I think that sex is an important part of marriage and I understand that I have played a major part in my own sexless marriage. I also believe though that my husband plays a part as well and some of his part involves his inability or unwillingness to really hear me when I talk about what I need and want in a physical sense. He asks me to tell him what I want and in the past I've tried to explain and show him but he just gets impatient and goes back to doing what he was doing before (which wasn't really working for me or I wouldn't have said anything). He is the "high sex drive partner" in my marriage and, while there are other issues involved for sure in our sexless marriage, I do think his inability to hear me means that for me alot of the sex has been mediocre. Why would I want more of that? I think what's an even worse idea to contemplate is that he has always thought we had pretty good sex. Of course, I've never come right out and used the word "mediocre" since I don't think hurting his feeling will solve anything but I have said as much in a gentler way. I say it's been a struggle to say that out loud to him because he gets defensive and angry and insists that there's nothing wrong with him. (I keep trying to explain that it's not about what's "wrong" with either of us it's about what we could do to at least try to fix what is happening in our relationship). It just seems so weird to say you want sex but then be closed to or only do half-heartedly what your partner says pleases her. I mean I have always tried to be a good listener when it came to his needs, how he liked this or that, what he wanted. Why can't I express my own without being told that I just don't like sex, have too many hangups, and need sex therapy?

I know there's more to it than that but I still think this myth applies at least in my own case.

sex911, you can put up a url to the article but Not as a link.

Thanks, Moderator.

msnbc.msn.com/id/13830384/

I made a mistake in saying the author(s) are doctors, suggesting that they are MDs. The primary author holds a PhD and is a licensed clinical psychologist.

I thought the whole piece made for some thought-provoking reading. It got me thinking about all sorts of stuff.

Ah, thanks, it turns out I actually saw that Dateline show a couple of years ago. I pretty much in agreement with all the other myth-debunkings.

But again, this business that one partner "knows" the sex isn't worth having, and the other partner's enjoyment of the sex therefore "needs to be questioned", sounds off-base to me. I think it's absurd to suggest it a problem that someone enjoys sex too much. Who came up with an absolute standard of "sex worth wanting"??? Isn't it highly variable and ONLY relevant to what each partner wants? I'm sure there are a lot of couples who both enjoy a particular kind of sex that other couples would consider "not worth wanting".

Well, I can sort of see the point the article is making about that myth, but the writing is sloppy. The myth-debunkings in the article make more sense when you interpreting them as meaning simply that the myths can still sometimes be true, it's just that they're not always true.

patient, I didnt' read this as saying that one partner enjoys sex too much or that there's some standard which says the sex is "worth wanting." I thought it meant that the high sex drive partner enjoys sex which is not worth wanting by the low sex drive partner. I can't speak for anyone else but when I apply this to my situation it resonates for sure since, amongst other things, we have a deep miscommunication (which is caused by factors on both sides).

In my case, my husband and I started out by being very open, explaining what we both liked, and giving how-to's. I worked really hard at trying to please my husband by doing what he wanted but he didn't really reciprocate. I think there could be lots of reasons for this none of which make him a bad or inconsiderate person but they have certainly helped make sure that he is not getting what he says he needs to stay in our marriage. If the sex ends up being quick and physically painful then I think it is "lousy" and why should I want to have it? If at the same time that I feel physical pain because of what he's doing (which is not caused by some underlying medical or psychological issue)and he's having an orgasm then I feel pretty confident that most people would agree this is "lousy." Honestly, for a very long time, I tried to like what he was doing because he gave every appearance of being satisfied and happy. I thought I didn't "like" it because I had all these problems, not enough experience, just didn't like sex, I had a crappy childhood, my dad was an alcoholic, etc. In the end all these issues just guaranteed I would facilitate the harm he was causing, which he was totally unaware of for his own unconscious reasons. I know it sounds unbelieveable but I adore my husband. He is a wonderful man and, we've had glimpses of something truly wonderful over the years in our relationship when we've taken the time, and communicated and really tried to connect. In those times everything including our sex life has been fantastic. And, that's why I'm still here trying so hard because I want more of what I've only glimpsed now and then. The more I let him just pound a way on me and have his own release the further away from those glimpses I got until I arrived at a very low place. And, that's when the sex stopped. If I'd let him go on I would have had to walk away and I really didn't want to.

Of course, counselling has helped me to cope with my childhood and all the isses I have, to become more assertive, to keep our lines of communication open. It's been so hard because the more I talk about this stuff, the more he refuses to acknowledge he has a part to play and throws it back on me as in I'm the one with all the problems: I just don't like sex, I don't love him, he's too tired to talk about this now, etc etc.

In the end, the big question really is why would he say he needs to have sex in the marriage to stay in the marriage and then behave in such a way as to make me not want to have sex with him? Hopefully,when we get that one answered we'll be well on our way to getting more than just a glimpse.

Sorry, long-winded!

Overcoming an impasse like this is what couples counseling or therapy is all about. Have you tried that? When you are in a time period where your needs are very different, it might not be enough for both of you to be "good listeners".

For some men, no matter how hard they try to "listen", to be told that right now, their woman needs to go through a period of no sex, or some incomplete form of it, simply does not compute. And for some men, after having been told that sex and love are "interconnected" for women, being told that the woman does not want sex for the time being seems equivalent to "not being in love". So I would cynically observe, apparently sex and love are connected for women, EXCEPT when they're NOT connected! Very confusing!

For a man to hear that the sex has to stop because if it continued, the woman is going to stop liking sex, makes no sense at all. Your husband has nowhere else to turn for sex, and so to be told that he has to cool it for the time bieng, is tough. I've been on the receiving end of this myself, and after a long time, it invites thoughts like, "Great, so I got married and now I'm not allowed to have sex with anybody at all!" It was maddening when my wife told me that such thoughts are insensitive and "not understanding" of her problems. So here we are, years later, and she's still "working" on her problems, and there is no sex.

Now, I do truly understand that my wife has difficulties which now have her in a state of not wanting sex. And I love her. But the fact that she has "legitimate reasons" for not wanting sex does NOT automatically make it OK and tolerable for me.

So that's why I recommend couples therapy -- it may be the case that your needs, as you both think of them at this point, are incompatible. That is, there may be nothing you two can come up with that will make you both "satisfied". And so you need a therapist to help you both to deal with this and come up with some fresh insights that you two otherwise might not think of. It's worth a try if the likely alternative is a split-up.

Thanks for your comments, patient. Yes, couples therapy might be a good idea but we've tried that with two difference therapists and neither was helpful so we won't be doing that again any time soon. What did you and your wife accomplish by going to couples therapy?

Thanks for your comments, patient. Yes, couples therapy might be a good idea but we've tried that with two difference therapists and neither was helpful so we won't be doing that again any time soon. I'm confused, I thought you said you were in a sexless marriage. Has this changed because you and your wife went to couples therapy? What sort of couples therapist did you see? How long did your therapy last?

I never said that if the sex continued I would stop liking sex. What I said was if the sex continued the way it was I would stop liking my husband. There's a big difference. In the past I have enjoyed sex with my husband but in recent years it has been pretty brief and painful. There are reasons for this on both sides, one of which is caused by his inability to hear me when I ask to have my needs met and I'm not asking for some huge thing to be done or anything bad just simple stuff like take his time, use a soft touch, things like that. Until I stopped having sex with him, he appeared to be getting his needs met and never complained or anything but I wasn't and I was saying so yet he did nothing to change his own behaviour.

You say that my husband "has nowhere else to turn for sex" as if it's all just a physical release and nothing more. If that's the case, there are lots of things he could have done including pay for it or develop a friendship with benefits. He has done neither because he knows that there's more to it than just the "mechanics" of it. And, although he says he can't stay married if we don't have sex, he's still here.

We have lost sight of how sex is meant to be a mutually enjoyable physical expression of our intimate emotional connection. And, it is this - our intimate emotional connection - that we need to work on. Once we re-connect that part of our life together, great enjoyable sex will follow naturally.

I'm not any kind of therapist but I do know that in my situation we do understand that it has taken the both of us to get to this point. We have both agreed that it will take the both of us to get us out of this. We have talked about all of this in the last few days and are feeling pretty confident that things are moving forward. We'll get there when we're ready.

I see from another thread that back on May 6, you didn't think sex therapy was what you needed because your problems are primarily emotional, not sexual. You should know that a sex therapist is really a therapist, with additional special training in sexual/emotional issues -- exactly what it seems you want. A sex therapist is not a medical doctor like a urologist, treating the physical aspects.

We had several couples therapists, over a period of several years. Even though it didn't result in sex, it was still helpful because it brought us back from fighting and each having his/her own viewpoint to one where we both understand and accept each other. So we now have a very cooperative and friendly marriage, but it's without sex.

Are you saying your husband does not slow down and give you a "soft touch" when you ask for it?

If it's all just a physical release, a man wouldn't need anybody at all -- he could just take care of himself anytime. Yes, men sometimes do this for physical release, but few men are happy with this as the only way because they really do want someone to share it with. The fact that he could have had other relationships, but has not, and has stayed in spite of saying he can't stay married, does not mean he's happy with the situation. It simply means that, for the moment, leaving right now, or having an outside relationship right now, is more of a hassle than simply going another day without sex. But that's it, just one more day. If you ask him to think a few years ahead, he's thinking, "no way". I know, I've been there and said exactly the same thing, and I'm still in my marriage!

Having been in couples therapy for some years, I take notice of some of the nuances of the way you express the problem. You say one reason is "his inability to hear me". It's better to say simply what you want. When you say what you want, it's a fact that nobody can argue with. When you suggest that someone else has an inability, that's open to argument, especially by the person you just "insulted", so to speak. I'm sure your husband would be even quicker to describe you as having certain "inabilities", which of course does you no good at all to hear. This kind of dialog problem is what therapy helped us get around. We both now accentuate only the positive, no insults of any kind back and forth. And if that doesn't meet our needs, we don't blame each other. Of course, that doesn't resolve the original problem, but it does make life much more pleasant in all the other ways. That is, we have learned to keep the problem from spilling out into every other aspect of our lives, which happens so easily with couples when they first experience a mismatch in the bedroom.

patient,
I have a measure of admiration for you if you can have a cooperative and friendly marriage that's without sex. I can only speak from my own experience (which is changing and growing in positive ways every day) when I say I can't imagine ever having a lasting marriage without sex. The fact that my marriage is currently sexless does not mean that it will be forever. I am keeping the lines of communication open and trying my best and, after a great deal of effort, I think we might actually be getting somewhere since recently my husband and I have been able to spend some time together and talk much more openly about a lot of this stuff. It has been great for sure and when I told my therapist about what was going on I was told we should refrain from sex since we need to cement the emotional bond further. Until we get further along with this I don't see how couples therapy which, as you say, revolves around solving a "dialog problem" would help especially since we need to be able to deal with reality, which is sometimes not what either of us wants to hear. If we went to couples therapy as you have done and it didn't resolve our sex issue(s), we would be very discouraged for sure.

About the release comments I made. I do believe my husband uses sex as a release (and even as a defense against true intimacy) and doesn't understand what it's like to be on the receiving end of that but I certainly don't think he intends to hurt me - I've had more than enough therapy to know the difference and would be the first to walk away if I thought that was truly the case. I also understand that just because he's stayed in our marriage doesn't mean he's happy. That would imply that he wants to be in a sexless marriage. I really believe my husband has stayed because he loves me. Just because he keeps telling me he's going to leave if we don't have sex doesn't mean he will. He's said that more than once and he's still here. Still, in the one thing (which he says is the ultimate expression of our intimate bond and is a deal breaker if he doesn't get it) he doesn't hear me, treats me like I could be anybody, and causes me physical pain. Also, despite how I feel about this, I've stayed. It could just as easily been me saying "if you don't change and give me what I want and need, I'm gone" but I wouldn't dream of doing that. Have I ever gone outside the marriage to find someone who might actually treat me sexually as if they really loved me? No. Do I think we'll be sexless forever? No, because we have previously proved that we can demonstrate our intimate bond in a beautiful way sexually. I'm staying focussed on that and working towards making that happen.

Just my opinion but I don't believe that anyone can have these types of problems in a marriage and not have them "spill out" into other aspects of their lives. Any kind of "lack" be it sex or otherwise can lead to resentment and all sorts of negative feelings in a marriage. To me, these feelings have a way of finding expression even if indirectly and despite our very best intentions. Because of that they could "spill out" no matter how amicable we are or are taught to be by a couples therapist - one of the therapists we saw was very much into teaching us how to be pleasant to one another, which we both found very frustrating and ineffective. The people I worry most about are our children. We certainly don't want our difficulties as a couple to "spill out" onto them and I think we are now much more on track even in these last few days to try harder to resolve everything as fast as we can.

I can't imagine having a lasting marriage without sex either. All I can say is that I'm still here, for now.

Yeah, our counselor told us to refrain from sex too until we could cement the emotional relationship. I laughed and told the therapist that that wouldn't be a problem because we haven't had sex, and we're not likely to. Not sure why our therapist thought she needed to tell us to refrain from sex when our problem was no sex in the first place! Needless to say, that approach doesn't necessarily work either -- you can do all the cementing you want, but that isn't guaranteed to make someone want sex.

As for your claim that your husband uses sex as a release -- how do you know that? How do you know what really goes on in his mind and what his subjective experience is like? And in any case, what's wrong with using it as a release, even if that's all it is? I know women who think of it that way too, and like sex that way. It might not be the right kind of sex for you, but who are you to say it's the wrong kind of sex for him? I often hear women criticize men for not having a deeply emotional and "connected" kind of sex. Are they saying that's the only "right" kind of sex? But then what do you say to a man who says that quick physical sex is the best, etc.? I don't think it's that easy to criticize someone else's way of enjoying sex. The only thing you can really say is that YOU don't like it that way, and therefore his way is not compatible with yours. That's a valid reason, and something worth working on in therapy or discussing with your husband. But again, it's because YOU don't like it, not because something is "wrong" with your husband's approach.

I'll agree with you that it is difficult to keep the tension of a sexless marriage from spilling out into other areas -- nobody's perfect. But surely you would agree that there are different degrees of success in this regard? For example, some people would just blow up and become physically abusive, while other people are very tolerant. That's a big difference.

By the way, the lesson you learn from a therapist is emotional, not just intellectual. A therapist might give you the intellectual tools to try to change your emotional reactions to each other, but the change does not happen overnight. And when you say you found it frustraing -- that is often what happens in therapy. There is no gain unless you struggle with the changes sometimes. The quick and easy Dr. Phil in 60 minutes type of solution is not realistic.